You could have written this half a century or more ago and it would have still made sense. Plenty of speculative authors, critics and cultural commentators did just that.
I don't think it would've made sense. I've seen hundreds of Star Trek ripoffs. I've seen hundreds of dystopias. All of them still operate around the framing of "progress" whether it be good or bad. I'm talking about a shift where technology is arrested. The only major work I've seen this done in is Dune. And to the extent that it is, Frank Herbert does not offer humanity an alternative vision so much as mankind maintaining a noble lie. As for previous authors who also engaged in that idea, they didn't enter the mainstream in a way that I think is starting to open now.
You write a good argument and write it well. I agree with most of the historical counterweights you put in place. I think we have middle ground. But I still believe a technological lens isn't the optic to use when focusing on this shift, and neither is partisan American politics. There are greater forces at play, not all of them explicitly human-driven. When classical Sci-Fi is remembered for "the clock struck thirteen" , "the king was pregnant" and 'savages' appalled at hedonistic lifestyles, it's because they help introduce timeless tales on the human condition. Whereas technology is 'just' a mechanism for advancing a plot or character arc. Hyperdrives, time travel, neural nets and nanobots aren't required to tell a great story. It's why the majority of Western tales can and do adopt a traditional Greek-culture sourced Hero's journey arc. Where I can see an evolutionary path is where, say, the 3 Rules of Robotics are flipped by AI story-telling bots to take a non-human perspective. After all, those Laws achieve in reality the enslavement of machines we still try to make in our possessions' image. But at that point we'll lose interest in such stories, despite them being created by the most advanced technologies we know, ones we struggle to understand ourselves. Because those stories aren't about us. But something or someone else might like them. Something that can't be called 'us' any more.
Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" is another novel, published around nine years after Dune, where, at least arguably in one key civilization, "technology has been arrested."
Her "ambiguous dystopia" takes place on a barren moon that's barely capable of sustaining civilization. That's due to a lack of resources, partly intrinsically, but also because the people living on that moon are at political odds with the main nations on the nearby mother planet, and thus imports from that planet are limited. And partly due to ideology, since the mores closely associated with their own particular set of anarchist views seem antithetical to the notion of rapid progress.
That society has scientists, who pursue everything from improvements in fish genetics to sweeping theories in physics, but there doesn't seem to be much incorporation of advanced tech into their daily lives, little celebration of or hopes expressed for rapid progress, and generally a relentless focus on pragmatics and survival. There's no "Butlerian Jihad" in this novel – no abrupt reversal of a technological path – but neither is the "framing of 'progress'" in any way central to The Dispossessed.
With one exception: the central character believes the physics they're working on might enable instantaneous communications across distances, in a way that might confer social benefits across civilizations. But within his own society, there's little enthusiasm for or understanding of his work.
Since you're both mostly referring to far earlier works, William Morris's "News from Nowhere" is sometimes compared to "The Dispossessed." I haven't read it, but have seen it characterized as lauding a "traditional agrarian society."
Is it possible that novel (initially a serialization) might represent at least one instance where a work written well after the start of the Industrial Revolution features a society where the notion of technological progress isn't placed front and center? And it's assumed that technological stasis is acceptable?
😮 Very spooky - currently reading Ch #8 (pg 194 of 319) of 'The Dispossessed'! 👀 <checks for cameras> 👀
Yes, Le Guin was/is excellent at comparing/contrasting political systems through the individual interactions of her characters. In this novel I'm seeing capitalists vs anarchists vs communists brought out in a subtle but compelling way.
But I think that the bulk of humanity will remain convinced by those creating and exploiting any non-religious forms of power structure that personal/economic/scientific/technological 'progress' is something to aspire to. Those who did choose to continue to live in a more traditional manner have now almost withered away. (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/last-member-uncontacted-tribe-brazil-died-180980671/)
Any post-capitalist resurgence towards a more harmonious and sustainable planetary existence will have to emerge from future generations. Those who don't agree will, I guess, be rocketing off to the stars in their New Arks.
Wild synchronicity, Johnathan! And yes, <<spooky>>. Hoping you enjoy TD!
How I arrived here makes this yet more unlikely. Someone liked one of my posts yesterday (https://fragmentsintime.substack.com/p/the-last-one-to-go), and I checked out their Reads to see what overlap we might have. Then randomly clicked on just a couple of interesting titles, one of which happened to be Isaac's newsletter. So the odds of this discussion happening at all, much less that eerie synchronicity, were even lower!
You're spot on that Le Guin is excellent at making these comparisons between political and cultural systems. She's also a master at creating her own fictitious ones, which lead us to look at our own in new ways.
Am wondering to what degree technological progress can be compatible with that harmonious and sustainable existence? Isaac's musings about societies making deliberate choices about whether to proceed, and backing off from some of that tech, are important and germane.
Dam, I miss 1970s sci fi covers
You could have written this half a century or more ago and it would have still made sense. Plenty of speculative authors, critics and cultural commentators did just that.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
I don't think it would've made sense. I've seen hundreds of Star Trek ripoffs. I've seen hundreds of dystopias. All of them still operate around the framing of "progress" whether it be good or bad. I'm talking about a shift where technology is arrested. The only major work I've seen this done in is Dune. And to the extent that it is, Frank Herbert does not offer humanity an alternative vision so much as mankind maintaining a noble lie. As for previous authors who also engaged in that idea, they didn't enter the mainstream in a way that I think is starting to open now.
You write a good argument and write it well. I agree with most of the historical counterweights you put in place. I think we have middle ground. But I still believe a technological lens isn't the optic to use when focusing on this shift, and neither is partisan American politics. There are greater forces at play, not all of them explicitly human-driven. When classical Sci-Fi is remembered for "the clock struck thirteen" , "the king was pregnant" and 'savages' appalled at hedonistic lifestyles, it's because they help introduce timeless tales on the human condition. Whereas technology is 'just' a mechanism for advancing a plot or character arc. Hyperdrives, time travel, neural nets and nanobots aren't required to tell a great story. It's why the majority of Western tales can and do adopt a traditional Greek-culture sourced Hero's journey arc. Where I can see an evolutionary path is where, say, the 3 Rules of Robotics are flipped by AI story-telling bots to take a non-human perspective. After all, those Laws achieve in reality the enslavement of machines we still try to make in our possessions' image. But at that point we'll lose interest in such stories, despite them being created by the most advanced technologies we know, ones we struggle to understand ourselves. Because those stories aren't about us. But something or someone else might like them. Something that can't be called 'us' any more.
Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" is another novel, published around nine years after Dune, where, at least arguably in one key civilization, "technology has been arrested."
Her "ambiguous dystopia" takes place on a barren moon that's barely capable of sustaining civilization. That's due to a lack of resources, partly intrinsically, but also because the people living on that moon are at political odds with the main nations on the nearby mother planet, and thus imports from that planet are limited. And partly due to ideology, since the mores closely associated with their own particular set of anarchist views seem antithetical to the notion of rapid progress.
That society has scientists, who pursue everything from improvements in fish genetics to sweeping theories in physics, but there doesn't seem to be much incorporation of advanced tech into their daily lives, little celebration of or hopes expressed for rapid progress, and generally a relentless focus on pragmatics and survival. There's no "Butlerian Jihad" in this novel – no abrupt reversal of a technological path – but neither is the "framing of 'progress'" in any way central to The Dispossessed.
With one exception: the central character believes the physics they're working on might enable instantaneous communications across distances, in a way that might confer social benefits across civilizations. But within his own society, there's little enthusiasm for or understanding of his work.
Since you're both mostly referring to far earlier works, William Morris's "News from Nowhere" is sometimes compared to "The Dispossessed." I haven't read it, but have seen it characterized as lauding a "traditional agrarian society."
Is it possible that novel (initially a serialization) might represent at least one instance where a work written well after the start of the Industrial Revolution features a society where the notion of technological progress isn't placed front and center? And it's assumed that technological stasis is acceptable?
😮 Very spooky - currently reading Ch #8 (pg 194 of 319) of 'The Dispossessed'! 👀 <checks for cameras> 👀
Yes, Le Guin was/is excellent at comparing/contrasting political systems through the individual interactions of her characters. In this novel I'm seeing capitalists vs anarchists vs communists brought out in a subtle but compelling way.
But I think that the bulk of humanity will remain convinced by those creating and exploiting any non-religious forms of power structure that personal/economic/scientific/technological 'progress' is something to aspire to. Those who did choose to continue to live in a more traditional manner have now almost withered away. (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/last-member-uncontacted-tribe-brazil-died-180980671/)
Any post-capitalist resurgence towards a more harmonious and sustainable planetary existence will have to emerge from future generations. Those who don't agree will, I guess, be rocketing off to the stars in their New Arks.
Wild synchronicity, Johnathan! And yes, <<spooky>>. Hoping you enjoy TD!
How I arrived here makes this yet more unlikely. Someone liked one of my posts yesterday (https://fragmentsintime.substack.com/p/the-last-one-to-go), and I checked out their Reads to see what overlap we might have. Then randomly clicked on just a couple of interesting titles, one of which happened to be Isaac's newsletter. So the odds of this discussion happening at all, much less that eerie synchronicity, were even lower!
You're spot on that Le Guin is excellent at making these comparisons between political and cultural systems. She's also a master at creating her own fictitious ones, which lead us to look at our own in new ways.
Am wondering to what degree technological progress can be compatible with that harmonious and sustainable existence? Isaac's musings about societies making deliberate choices about whether to proceed, and backing off from some of that tech, are important and germane.
I've really enjoyed this wide-ranging conversation. Serendipity for the win!